Finding out the truth about the laws in the US

thetwist · 12-29-2007, 08:22 PM

Hi everyone,
I've been lurking off and on for a few months now, and finally really need to appeal to everyone for some advice.

My bf and I have been together for 1.5 yrs. We live in the US. I was donor conceived and found him shortly after learning of my conception at age 30. He is married, but about to divorce. I too am married with a young child and getting very close to divorce myself. As so many of you know, once you find this depth of love, nothing else can compare.

I'd like both of us to have a "break" before we would contemplate living together. But, we really need to know the truth about the laws around here before we even think about that.

From all I have read in our state's laws, "incest" is illegal. The language makes it pretty clear that "incest" is relations with someone you are legitimately or illegitimately related to. Ok, so even though he didn't raise me and I didn't even know he existed until age 30, we're still illegitimately related I guess?

So, our relations are illegal. Ok, so, what does that mean? Who is going to prosecute us? The state? Does someone need to witness us having relations and report us? How is this proven? What is the penalty... jail? (If that is a risk, I can't do this, I love my child too much.) Does there need to be a victim? I'm sure you can all see the questions we are asking to better understand this. We live in one of the most liberal and accepting communities in the country, but still... what would it take for us to be arrested / convicted / sentenced, etc? How can we find out this information officially, without incriminating ourselves?

I have read a few articles on the internet lately about a father and step-daughter being arrested, and then there's a half-brother and sister somewhere who had kids and were arrested. ( I believe.) I don't want to have children with my bf, we just want to be together and live in peace.

Any thoughts?

Thanks everyone.

Victor · 12-30-2007, 08:06 AM

In the US you are protected by our Constitution's guarantees of "due process" and right to privacy. You cannot be arrested without cause. There is "no cause" if there is no evidence or corroberating witnesses against you. You cannot be compelled to submit to a DNA test without a warent and no warent will be issued without just cause (evidence of a crime). Pretty much that means that so long as your cohabitation is not prohibitted by law, where states have made it illegal to live with someone who is not your wedded spouse (North Carolina for example) and you do not produce children, and do not have sex with your BF in public, there can be no prosecution. Do not let anyone know that your boyfriend is your birth father. You'll be fine.

Victor · 12-30-2007, 08:13 AM

For the record, my daughter and I have already been accused of having had intercourse by my ex spouse. That accusation was made in an Order of Protection, a legal document, read by a judge. There was no arrest or prosecution, even though we did not fight the claims in the Order. The reason was that there was simply an absence of evidence. I'm sure that "where" in the US this happened also had much to do with how it was handled. It is one of those notorious "blue" states.

thetwist · 12-30-2007, 06:02 PM

Goodness Victor, thank you so much for your insight. It sounds like you and your "Daughter" have been through this stuff? What I'm wondering about is this... if we really are as "safe" as it seems from your description (keeping everything as private as possible), what has happened in these few cases we hear about? Did one of the people involved in the relationship come forward as a victim?

So, if someone accuses us of incest and reports us to the authorities... we can be asked if our relationship is sexual? We would then be required to answer truthfully, correct? In doing so we would incriminate ourselves? Could we be prosecuted on that alone... admitting to the crime? Or do we "deny, deny, deny"?

So many people already know us as father/daughter, even though I was donor conceived. I think we would be very cautious about public displays of affection, but certainly we enjoy walking "down the lane" hand in hand just like the next couple and wouldn't avoid that for fear of someone saying something.

I wonder if anyone can report us or if there has to be a victim? Victor, I'm sorry if I'm reiterating questions I've already asked / you've already answered. You can see my fear and worry here... We've also spoken about adopting a child or me going through donor conception myself. I wonder how we would have to explain our relationship in that case. I live with my "father" but just want to have another baby and don't have a partner? I suppose someone would believe that, but those folks also know about GSA and might suspect. But, they can't hold that against us?

I think I'm making myself paranoid. It's just so hard to find beautiful happiness and fear someone taking it away. Victor, if you could PM me, I'd love to know what state you guys are in.

To everyone... happy new year,
the twist

Victor · 12-31-2007, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwist

Goodness Victor, thank you so much for your insight. It sounds like you and your "Daughter" have been through this stuff? What I'm wondering about is this... if we really are as "safe" as it seems from your description (keeping everything as private as possible), what has happened in these few cases we hear about? Did one of the people involved in the relationship come forward as a victim?

What has happened in everyone of these cases is that someone has reported them that knew their situation. In the case in Germany the couple have produced children which are the evidence against their indiscretion. As far as the case in England, just ask...here. That couple are on this forum with us.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwist

So, if someone accuses us of incest and reports us to the authorities... we can be asked if our relationship is sexual? We would then be required to answer truthfully, correct? In doing so we would incriminate ourselves? Could we be prosecuted on that alone... admitting to the crime? Or do we "deny, deny, deny"?

The fifth Amendment to the Constitution provides you guards from self-incrimination (you've heard of "pleading the fifth", haven't you?). That's for folks who would rather not lie. They simply don't answer, envoking their constitutional rights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwist

So many people already know us as father/daughter, even though I was donor conceived. I think we would be very cautious about public displays of affection, but certainly we enjoy walking "down the lane" hand in hand just like the next couple and wouldn't avoid that for fear of someone saying something.

You have a couple of options: you can move to a place where you are not known as father and daughter; or you can avoid public displays of affection that go beyond what is common for a father and daughter; and there may be others. But in most places it is not uncommon that a daughter, even an adult daughter with children, should end up living with her dad. We can thank American TV for popularizing and endearing this kind of relationship in our psyche.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwist

I wonder if anyone can report us or if there has to be a victim? Victor, I'm sorry if I'm reiterating questions I've already asked / you've already answered. You can see my fear and worry here... We've also spoken about adopting a child or me going through donor conception myself. I wonder how we would have to explain our relationship in that case. I live with my "father" but just want to have another baby and don't have a partner? I suppose someone would believe that, but those folks also know about GSA and might suspect. But, they can't hold that against us?

No, they can't hold that against you. A child you adopt or are artificially inseminated with cannot be used as evidence against you. Only a child you produce from your own union can. But to answer your first question, there doesn't have to be a victim. Incest is one of those crimes where there isn't necessarily a victim. The crime is one that violates a law, where the law is not meant to protect a victim, but rather protects from someone violating a social taboo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwist

I think I'm making myself paranoid. It's just so hard to find beautiful happiness and fear someone taking it away. Victor, if you could PM me, I'd love to know what state you guys are in.

Fear of social retribution is one of the many reasons my daughter and I have refused to act on our feelings. PM coming....

RelaKinship4Life · 01-05-2008, 08:26 PM

I'm very thankful for all the information that your postings have provided for me and my HS. We are both from Canada so i'll have to do some research into how the laws effect us here. I know we have the Charter of rights and freedoms. Something interesting though that i thought i might pose to you and others... This may be purly based upon speculation but i thought i mught ask it anyway...My Hs and I have heard that in some countires it is not against the law to be half siblings and be together in a consumated relationship. In some countries I have heard opinions that there are no laws against being wed to your sibling, im speaking of France in this instance. If any of these speculations are true i guess my real question is regarding getting married, in say France we have our wedding, and then coming back to live in Canada could we be arrested for being married since one of the regulations of marriage is that you have to consumate in order for it to be official? I know alot of that may sound like a silly question but we have been living together now for a year. We know we cant get married here but both of us have started to ponder the idea of being officially married, since we share the same last name already.

Thanks again
RK4L

KIN IS IN!!!

osiris · 01-06-2008, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RelaKinship4Life

In some countries I have heard opinions that there are no laws against being wed to your sibling, im speaking of France in this instance. If any of these speculations are true i guess my real question is regarding getting married, in say France we have our wedding, and then coming back to live in Canada could we be arrested for being married since one of the regulations of marriage is that you have to consumate in order for it to be official?

The countries which do not criminalize consensual adult incest are:
Belgium, France, Portugal, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Luxemburg, Brazil, Argentina and Japan.

In France all possible combinations of consensual sexual relationships are allowed, provided neither party is a minor.

Sweden is the only country I know of in which it is legal for half-siblings to marry.

Here is the Canadian law:
Incest - (C.C. Section 155) Anyone commits incest who, knowing that another person is by blood relationship his/her parent, child, brother, sister, grandparent or grandchild, has sexual intercourse with that person. In this section, 'brother' and 'sister' include half-brother and half-sister.

The court is not required to impose any punishment on a female person convicted of incest if the court is satisfied that she committed the offense by reason that she was under restraint, duress, or fear of the person with whom she had intercourse. Everyone who commits incest is guilty of an indictable offense and is liable to imprisonment for 14 years.

According to the letter of the law, you could indeed get married in Sweden and come back to Canada without being in violation of the law.

However, there is a reasonable presumption on the part of the State that a married couple will in fact engage in sexual relationships, and in any case, if you are found to be related the marriage would probably not be valid in Canada anyway.

Finally, in order to get married in Sweden, you sort of have to be a Swede, or at least have Swedish residency. We have a Swedish member who can fill you in on the details.

My question, though, is why is it so important to be married? If it's for tax or inheritance reasons, maybe it's not such a good idea, inasmuch as the marriage would probably be found to be invalid anyway. If it's just for the ceremony, why not just get your friends and any sympathetic family members (if any) and have a "wedding." As long as you don't try to register your marriage with the province, who's to know?

Just my 2 cents.

Victor · 01-06-2008, 08:44 AM

Wasn't it in the book "Anne of Avenlea" where Anne was taken in and raised by a couple who were brother and sister? Avenlea is supposed to be a town in Nova Scotia, Canada.

Martin1932 · 02-19-2008, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetwist

I wonder if anyone can report us or if there has to be a victim? Victor, I'm sorry if I'm reiterating questions I've already asked / you've already answered. You can see my fear and worry here... We've also spoken about adopting a child or me going through donor conception myself. I wonder how we would have to explain our relationship in that case. I live with my "father" but just want to have another baby and don't have a partner? I suppose someone would believe that, but those folks also know about GSA and might suspect. But, they can't hold that against us?
the twist

I am happy for you that you have found your bf and I wish that you are able to make it permanent. While adoption is possible and donor conception is somewhat common, both are usually time consuming and not least of all, expensive. Why not just have a baby with your "father" and no one will ever know, unless you make it public. Most states no longer require that you identify a father for your baby's birth certificate at the hospital or birthing center.

It is not uncommon for divorced daughters return home to their parents after divorce, nor is it unusual for a divorced lady to become a single mom. Unless you live in a small community, your pregnancy would not be questioned at all.

I think, as you say you are overly paranoid, and should let your natural instincts allow you to live your life in happiness and have the child(ren) you seem to want to complete your family.

May God grant you a successful pregnancy and lifelong happiness for you and your father.

thetwist · 02-25-2008, 08:09 PM

First off, to Martin: thank you for such kind words!

And, to Victor: your posts continue to be such a source of strength, wisdom, empathy and reality. Thank you!

The relationship with my bf continues to deepen. We are very seriously considering having a child together, but absolutely will learn all we can about genetic issues before even attempting conception.

Have any of you heard of someone having a child with their biological parent? I'm wondering what the statistical risks are (if they are known)... or how to calculate them. Studies? Places to learn more? How is the risk calculated?

Wondering too if confiding in an OBGYN to assist in finding the correct genetic counselors, etc. would be damning ourselves? Or, the genetic researchers? Would the authorities find out? I suppose if I show up pregnant in an OBGYN's office, they don't know that the man accompanying me is my bf. But, I want an open and healthy pregnancy if I do this.

I read something on a website which seemed to summarize as this: the egg and sperm are joined in the lab... the embryo is tested for defects, if none exist, is implanted? Was I reading Sci-Fi?

Help... I'm lost again and you guys are so awesome at helping lend info. that you've researched already... or if you know somewhere / something I can go read...

Thanks!

thetwist

12-29-2007, 08:22 PM	#1
thetwist Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4	Finding out the truth about the laws in the US Hi everyone, I've been lurking off and on for a few months now, and finally really need to appeal to everyone for some advice. My bf and I have been together for 1.5 yrs. We live in the US. I was donor conceived and found him shortly after learning of my conception at age 30. He is married, but about to divorce. I too am married with a young child and getting very close to divorce myself. As so many of you know, once you find this depth of love, nothing else can compare. I'd like both of us to have a "break" before we would contemplate living together. But, we really need to know the truth about the laws around here before we even think about that. From all I have read in our state's laws, "incest" is illegal. The language makes it pretty clear that "incest" is relations with someone you are legitimately or illegitimately related to. Ok, so even though he didn't raise me and I didn't even know he existed until age 30, we're still illegitimately related I guess? So, our relations are illegal. Ok, so, what does that mean? Who is going to prosecute us? The state? Does someone need to witness us having relations and report us? How is this proven? What is the penalty... jail? (If that is a risk, I can't do this, I love my child too much.) Does there need to be a victim? I'm sure you can all see the questions we are asking to better understand this. We live in one of the most liberal and accepting communities in the country, but still... what would it take for us to be arrested / convicted / sentenced, etc? How can we find out this information officially, without incriminating ourselves? I have read a few articles on the internet lately about a father and step-daughter being arrested, and then there's a half-brother and sister somewhere who had kids and were arrested. ( I believe.) I don't want to have children with my bf, we just want to be together and live in peace. Any thoughts? Thanks everyone.

12-30-2007, 06:02 PM	#4
thetwist Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4	Thank you Goodness Victor, thank you so much for your insight. It sounds like you and your "Daughter" have been through this stuff? What I'm wondering about is this... if we really are as "safe" as it seems from your description (keeping everything as private as possible), what has happened in these few cases we hear about? Did one of the people involved in the relationship come forward as a victim? So, if someone accuses us of incest and reports us to the authorities... we can be asked if our relationship is sexual? We would then be required to answer truthfully, correct? In doing so we would incriminate ourselves? Could we be prosecuted on that alone... admitting to the crime? Or do we "deny, deny, deny"? So many people already know us as father/daughter, even though I was donor conceived. I think we would be very cautious about public displays of affection, but certainly we enjoy walking "down the lane" hand in hand just like the next couple and wouldn't avoid that for fear of someone saying something. I wonder if anyone can report us or if there has to be a victim? Victor, I'm sorry if I'm reiterating questions I've already asked / you've already answered. You can see my fear and worry here... We've also spoken about adopting a child or me going through donor conception myself. I wonder how we would have to explain our relationship in that case. I live with my "father" but just want to have another baby and don't have a partner? I suppose someone would believe that, but those folks also know about GSA and might suspect. But, they can't hold that against us? I think I'm making myself paranoid. It's just so hard to find beautiful happiness and fear someone taking it away. Victor, if you could PM me, I'd love to know what state you guys are in. To everyone... happy new year, the twist

01-05-2008, 08:26 PM	#6
RelaKinship4Life Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 12	I'm very thankful for all the information that your postings have provided for me and my HS. We are both from Canada so i'll have to do some research into how the laws effect us here. I know we have the Charter of rights and freedoms. Something interesting though that i thought i might pose to you and others... This may be purly based upon speculation but i thought i mught ask it anyway...My Hs and I have heard that in some countires it is not against the law to be half siblings and be together in a consumated relationship. In some countries I have heard opinions that there are no laws against being wed to your sibling, im speaking of France in this instance. If any of these speculations are true i guess my real question is regarding getting married, in say France we have our wedding, and then coming back to live in Canada could we be arrested for being married since one of the regulations of marriage is that you have to consumate in order for it to be official? I know alot of that may sound like a silly question but we have been living together now for a year. We know we cant get married here but both of us have started to ponder the idea of being officially married, since we share the same last name already. Thanks again RK4L KIN IS IN!!! __________________ True love is finding your home in the heart of another, with whom you've made a home in your heart for too.

02-25-2008, 08:09 PM	#10
thetwist Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4	And the story continues...the plot thickens First off, to Martin: thank you for such kind words! And, to Victor: your posts continue to be such a source of strength, wisdom, empathy and reality. Thank you! The relationship with my bf continues to deepen. We are very seriously considering having a child together, but absolutely will learn all we can about genetic issues before even attempting conception. Have any of you heard of someone having a child with their biological parent? I'm wondering what the statistical risks are (if they are known)... or how to calculate them. Studies? Places to learn more? How is the risk calculated? Wondering too if confiding in an OBGYN to assist in finding the correct genetic counselors, etc. would be damning ourselves? Or, the genetic researchers? Would the authorities find out? I suppose if I show up pregnant in an OBGYN's office, they don't know that the man accompanying me is my bf. But, I want an open and healthy pregnancy if I do this. I read something on a website which seemed to summarize as this: the egg and sperm are joined in the lab... the embryo is tested for defects, if none exist, is implanted? Was I reading Sci-Fi? Help... I'm lost again and you guys are so awesome at helping lend info. that you've researched already... or if you know somewhere / something I can go read... Thanks! thetwist

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12-30-2007, 08:06 AM	#2
Victor Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 178	In the US you are protected by our Constitution's guarantees of "due process" and right to privacy. You cannot be arrested without cause. There is "no cause" if there is no evidence or corroberating witnesses against you. You cannot be compelled to submit to a DNA test without a warent and no warent will be issued without just cause (evidence of a crime). Pretty much that means that so long as your cohabitation is not prohibitted by law, where states have made it illegal to live with someone who is not your wedded spouse (North Carolina for example) and you do not produce children, and do not have sex with your BF in public, there can be no prosecution. Do not let anyone know that your boyfriend is your birth father. You'll be fine.

12-30-2007, 08:13 AM	#3
Victor Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 178	For the record, my daughter and I have already been accused of having had intercourse by my ex spouse. That accusation was made in an Order of Protection, a legal document, read by a judge. There was no arrest or prosecution, even though we did not fight the claims in the Order. The reason was that there was simply an absence of evidence. I'm sure that "where" in the US this happened also had much to do with how it was handled. It is one of those notorious "blue" states.

01-06-2008, 08:44 AM	#8
Victor Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 178	Wasn't it in the book "Anne of Avenlea" where Anne was taken in and raised by a couple who were brother and sister? Avenlea is supposed to be a town in Nova Scotia, Canada.