To Red.String of Fate

[Vin Rohm]

Originally Posted by roeschoice

Vin,
Thank you. I seem to have trouble expressing myself, but you have said in a few words, the very thing I was trying to express.

It's the psychology of GSA which needs research, understanding, compassion and so much more acceptance apart and completely separate from someone elses moralistic adherence to a laws and morality.

Thank you Vin.

Roe

You're welcome. Something about this conversation had been bothering me. While I agree with other senior members that you might be somewhat oblivious to the harms they speak of, I began to notice that they too seemed to be oblivious to the real problem of GSA. It's not the sex....people have sex all the time without a problem. It's the psychological stigma associated with certain sexual practices that puts a strain on those who engage in them.

Just like with the general attitude towards homosexuality, where the religious see homosexual sex as the problem, GSA is often viewed negatively because of the incest involved, and wrongly believe that it is because incest is illegal that all of these problems arrise from a GSA relationship because of the sex. It is not. It is our psychological attitude toward incest that causes the greatest harm.

If you are taught from birth that incest (or homosexuality) is wrong, and then find yourself in such a situation and enjoying it, all that teaching can come crashing down on your psyche. "It feels good, but its' WRONG!" The mind goes back and forth between that which they have been taught and what the experience is telling them, and they end up concluding that they are somehow bad people for liking it so much. It drives them into a frenzy of emotion which only adds fire to the other issues they have to deal with in a GSA relationship.

I would like to see us get away from discussing the legal aspects of GSA, and talking more about it's psychology...the mental dynamics of a GSA relationship. I know that people like Myshaddow have been helped with the reminder that incest is illegal and the "legal" consequences of getting caught. But I think we do harm when we boo hoo the sex and tell people that they're f*cked if they "cross that -sexual- line" or they cross that legal line of committing incest. They aren't. They become f*cked when they cross that psychological line...when they venture into territory that crosses so many psychological boundaries within themselves.

[Red.String.of.Fate]

I believe the law regarding incest is in a vicious circle with the moral beliefs of the general and individual people.

An individual will learn that incest is wrong from birth thanks to his parents raising them, watching the tv, and coming into contact with friends as such.

More individuals like that form the community, and communities from the law which in turn feed the same ideas back to the individual.

So, to change this aspect, you would have to break the chain, otherwise even if you want to change it the community will not allow it.

On the other side, I do not agree with SEX itself being the only nono in GSA.
I have yet to cross that line, and yet we were a 'couple', which in itself involves the psychological aspect more than the sexual.

It is not that few minutes(to each his own) of pleasure that is so dangerous psychologically, but the consequences that follow after.

Abstractly speaking if two people could have sex without feelings of attachment, hurt or possessiveness just pure sexual relief it would not be more meaningful to them than satisfying other physical needs, such as eating together, or sharing a bathroom.

However I have yet to see one person being able to completely detach himself after a sexual encounter in a GSA relationship.
We are programmed to form bonds and relationships, so sex can and usually leads to serious attachment when the partner is considered the chosen mate.

Legal, social, and moral problems arise after and usually ends up with one or both partners hurt.
So stopping it at the sexual is a way to prevent it the many problems that arise, however it in itself is not the main cause of concern in GSA.

I also believe every person should be able to enjoy sex the way they want and with who.
It is not up to the system to define who I go to bed with, the same way it is not up to the system to choose my friends.
Yes, I may go in the wrong crowd, yes my life could get f***ed up, but that does not mean there should be a law regarding that aswell.

And if the law considers that 18 is old enough to get married, have a job and kids, join the army and fight for your country I believe it could consider old enough to have an incestual relationship.

Let's not forget that people don't wake up in the morning and check the rights that they have in order to make a decision about what they will do that day, and it is very unlikely that a pair of sibling will suddenly go 'oh, look! It's legal to go to bed with my sister! Let's try that today'

I have actually done research about WHY people consider incest wrong, and so far no one has come up with the answer 'It is illegal', in many cases most were not even aware of it being illegal since they never had interest in looking up the law regarding that.

And a person who looks it up, and has interest in it, is not likely to stop on that pure ground.

Moral beliefs will not disappear so easily, and are enough to sustain that 'fragile' line between us all being incestuous.
I mean look at france, or sweden. Did the community suddenly have a problem with incest? Did the economy crash? Did life change as they knew it? No.

That law exists exactly because of cases like these, where law or no law it will still happen.

In my country they are considering changing the law and I have been following the pro and cons for the last year.
Common people who refuse it are all thinking that suddenly everyone will climb on everyone and it will become a big inbreeding ground.
Scholers, psychologists and lawyers agree with it, stating that incest is a psychological phenomenon (not statutory rape!!) between consenting adults , that can not be treated by prison.
It should be approached by therapy counselling and not sending them to jail along rapists and criminals.
And the only way to freely approach counselling and helping them is for them to be able to freely ask for help in stead of fearing the consequences.

And I couldn't agree more.

After all, like a saying goes in my country 'If it's not your shirt, don't wear it'

[fullmarriageequality]

It was take the concepts of "consenting adults," privacy, and equality seriously, it is ridiculous to deny consanguinamorous marriages, and even more so to prosecute people in such relationships.

[cedarforest]

FME,
That is your opinion. If all arguements for & against incest were fully laid out & explored, then (IMO), it would NOT be ridiculous. Personally, after seeing all the devastation of so many, on this site, I'd say it's ridiculous to be a proponent of incest. Again, this is my opinion, but I say it from observations & experience, not just b/c I chose to say it. Please understand, too, that I speak as one who participated fully in GSA, & went thru the good & bad of it. So, I understand the whys of both arguments.

I don't mean this to be mean spirited, b/c you actually seem to be a decent person. I just feel your agenda to remove the illegality of incest, may cause you to ignore the (IMO), obvious devastation that it USUALLY causes. Misery is misery, some on this site try to blame society & all kinds of other things for the reasons that people experiencing GSA, experience guilt, shame, & fear. That is counterproductive, when the reason for such negative feelings are a direct results of ones actions. Remember, it's ONLY the illegal aspect of GSA, that brigs on these repucussions. The illegal aspect is the very thing that you promote changing. Respectfully.--cedarforest

[cedarforest]

Red,
I fully appreciate your analysis on the general bond that's created when people perform the act of sex together. That's the way we were created, so it's only natural. Plus, it's the way that we are designed tp "procreate". It's called being "intimate", for a good reason.--cedarforest

[freesoul]

Originally Posted by Vin Rohm

You're welcome. Something about this conversation had been bothering me. While I agree with other senior members that you might be somewhat oblivious to the harms they speak of, I began to notice that they too seemed to be oblivious to the real problem of GSA. It's not the sex....people have sex all the time without a problem. It's the psychological stigma associated with certain sexual practices that puts a strain on those who engage in them.

Just like with the general attitude towards homosexuality, where the religious see homosexual sex as the problem, GSA is often viewed negatively because of the incest involved, and wrongly believe that it is because incest is illegal that all of these problems arrise from a GSA relationship because of the sex. It is not. It is our psychological attitude toward incest that causes the greatest harm.

If you are taught from birth that incest (or homosexuality) is wrong, and then find yourself in such a situation and enjoying it, all that teaching can come crashing down on your psyche. "It feels good, but its' WRONG!" The mind goes back and forth between that which they have been taught and what the experience is telling them, and they end up concluding that they are somehow bad people for liking it so much. It drives them into a frenzy of emotion which only adds fire to the other issues they have to deal with in a GSA relationship.

I would like to see us get away from discussing the legal aspects of GSA, and talking more about it's psychology...the mental dynamics of a GSA relationship. I know that people like Myshaddow have been helped with the reminder that incest is illegal and the "legal" consequences of getting caught. But I think we do harm when we boo hoo the sex and tell people that they're f*cked if they "cross that -sexual- line" or they cross that legal line of committing incest. They aren't. They become f*cked when they cross that psychological line...when they venture into territory that crosses so many psychological boundaries within themselves.

That is the very sticky point that we all come up against in dealing with GSA and how best to support one another.

Sex is just sex. Our attitudes, beliefs and morals dictate how we deal with it. Plug GSA into that equation and all the varied circumstances each of us have in our lives when GSA knocks on our door... and it is those attitudes, beliefs and morals that will shape what we do in our GSA relationships, how we help and/or hinder ourselves in getting through it and heal. When we come to help others we carry all those attitudes with us... the degree to which our personal boundaries are crossed and the level of resulting pain seems to be proportional to how 'fixed' we are in how we approach others.

Well said, Vin.

[fullmarriageequality]

CF, of course it is my opinion. I am the one who wrote it.

ANY romantic or sexual relationship can have horrible fallout. Ever see the pain that results from a divorce between heterosexual, nonrelated people? Should we outlaw those relationships, too? With GSA, no small part is caused by... the law, and ignorance of those not in the relationship. It is circular logic to say that a reason something should be illegal is that it is illegal.

My agenda is that consenting adults be allowed their relationships. I don't think that anyone SHOULD be with anyone. Some people just aren't right for each other, at least as lovers. But that should be THEIR decision.

I do appreciate all that you and others here do to help people in pain and to help them from causing more pain by cheating, or subjecting themselves to toxic people, etc.

[freesoul]

Originally Posted by fullmarriageequality

ANY romantic or sexual relationship can have horrible fallout. Ever see the pain that results from a divorce between heterosexual, nonrelated people? Should we outlaw those relationships, too? With GSA, no small part is caused by... the law, and ignorance of those not in the relationship. It is circular logic to say that a reason something should be illegal is that it is illegal.

AND with GSA, sometimes those heterosexual non-related relationships are pain-filled and destructive because we preserve and or pursue them on 'moral grounds' instead of being honest with ourselves about what our GSA relationship really means... In my case I hurt a lot of people by doing the so-called 'right thing'.